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[TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

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[TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Franklin Stone on Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:07 pm

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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by RaccoonGoon on Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:16 pm

Uh, Franklin, if I read it properly, DC did not refuse the program so much as he said that we were ineligible/uninterested due to not having a commune system that relies on WAM clicks.

Also, it's debatable whether being obligated to NSC orders makes you a wing of the USAF, but I can see why people would feel that way. Either way, there are plenty of reasons why Private MUs are private.

Nonetheless, carry on.
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Franklin Stone on Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:53 pm

Yes, I do agree that the reason put forth was the fact that Easy Company Militia did not have communes that were eligible, however I feel that it would still have been refused even if we could have qualified; Easy Company Militia is the best because it is private -no sense changing that now.

If an MU is obligated to not deviate from NSC orders, IMO, they have become a member of 'government sanctioned forces' and therefore is a Division of the USAF. Since PMU commanders help make up the NSC I would think that 99% of the time PMUs will follow NSC orders, however; there is that 1% of the time when it is more desirable to aid another ally elsewhere. I think it was covered pretty well in the thread I mentioned, I mean if damage is king; damage management is queen.


Last edited by Franklin Stone on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by RaccoonGoon on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:10 pm

Realistically though, it's more about PMUs freedom of choice and semantics than anything else. As you mentioned, 99% of the time, there would be no functional difference.

Personally, I think the best reason not to have a slice of this pie is because things here work well enough as they are, and I don't think a small weekly rebate would be worth the hassle of having another cook in the kitchen.

With that said, I disagree with the idea espoused by some that the whole point of the proposal was to bring more MUs under USAF command.

Either way, the fact is that the discussion is largely inconsequential because the proposal will likely be shelved due to a lack of interested parties.

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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Deepchill on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:30 pm

DON'T YOU DARE SAY HEAPSEPPO IN HERE...

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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Franklin Stone on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:52 pm

OUCH!
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Sorry!
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by RaccoonGoon on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:54 pm

Deepchill wrote:DON'T YOU DARE SAY HEAPSEPPO IN HERE...

chair

Honest question, DC (that you don't have to answer if you don't want to):
Do you get along with everybody in eRep except, well, that guy? That's kind of what it looks like. lol

EDIT: Also, Franklin, is it just me or do you take more beatings than anyone else in Easy? XD
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Franklin Stone on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:04 pm

RaccoonGoon wrote:Realistically though, it's more about PMUs freedom of choice and semantics than anything else. As you mentioned, 99% of the time, there would be no functional difference.
Either way, the fact is that the discussion is largely inconsequential because the proposal will likely be shelved due to a lack of interested parties.

My main point was just that, Congress keeps recycling the same programs; regardless of the lack of interest in said program. I just think it is time to realize that a standing army in the form of the USAF has failed, it is time to privatize it and begin the process of growth; Easy Company Militia wasn't always the best -it grew into that role.

Some Congress Members were against PMUs associated with a Political Party receiving the refund at all -SHIELD was used as an example- because it was like giving money to the party. Isn't that exactly what the USAF is? Isn't it the Private Military Unit of the government and those who make up that government and does not the political entity of the 'government' benefit from the Budget Line the USAF receives?

Even the Department of Education and the Department of Interior survive on private donations, both of which are claimed by the government as Departments;  once gain the 'government' claiming the work of others. IMO both of those departmets are better off for that reason, I would much rather give the USAFs budget line to either of those departments; I would be hopeful that they too would say no to such funding -but I would support such funding non the less because at the very least they aim to gain and retain new citizens.

RaccoonGoon wrote:
Deepchill wrote:DON'T YOU DARE SAY HEAPSEPPO IN HERE...

chair

Honest question, DC (that you don't have to answer if you don't want to):
Do you get along with everybody in eRep except, well, that guy? That's kind of what it looks like. lol

EDIT: Also, Franklin, is it just me or do you take more beatings than anyone else in Easy? XD

Yes, comes with being the loud mouthed stoner at the end of the bar.
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Whydoibother on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:37 pm

SEAPHEPPO!!!!!

We didn't refuse FS, we just don't currently qualify.

IMO, there are ways to make this work for PMUs that are interested. One unit's big sticking point is having to follow NSC orders all the time. That group has yet to propose what they are willing to accept. I think my suggestion of 6/7 days AND ANY battle invloving eUS regions (core or otherwise) or directly led eUS battles is a good start but no one else seemed to think that.

Realistically, we are talking about a very small number of MUs that even qualify. EZC, ST6, SHIELD, Black Sheep, Cannon Cockers, eUS Mil... the majority of whom are against government oversight in any form. At the end of the day, it appears to be a dead issue.
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by RaccoonGoon on Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:04 pm

Whydoibother wrote:IMO, there are ways to make this work for PMUs that are interested. One unit's big sticking point is having to follow NSC orders all the time. That group has yet to propose what they are willing to accept. I think my suggestion of 6/7 days AND ANY battle invloving eUS regions (core or otherwise) or directly led eUS battles is a good start but no one else seemed to think that.

I thought your suggestion was a valiant attempt at steering the discussion back toward something productive, but the fact that it went mostly ignored just shows that it's not an issue of how much oversight, it's an issue of having any oversight at all.

@Franklin:
I find that you often make large leaps with your logic to support your point of view, when the reality is that many times the evidence does not support your hypothesis.

Have you looked closely at other countries that are ruled by a confederation of PMUs instead of having an executive-backed force like we do? For one example, today Romania lost an important battle in Zona Sur and got kicked out of New Zealand and South America, and from what I've read, the main reason they were not able to hold that territory is because there is an ongoing disagreement between the eRomanian government and their private MUs, such that less than 50% of Romanian damage even went into the battle.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to see the eUS in that sort of position.
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Deepchill on Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:20 pm

RaccoonGoon wrote:
Deepchill wrote:DON'T YOU DARE SAY HEAPSEPPO IN HERE...

chair

Honest question, DC (that you don't have to answer if you don't want to):
Do you get along with everybody in eRep except, well, that guy? That's kind of what it looks like. lol

EDIT: Also, Franklin, is it just me or do you take more beatings than anyone else in Easy? XD

Answer is yes. Never had a problem with anyone in this game. Still don't know why he hates me tbh, so I hate him back lol.

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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Franklin Stone on Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:50 am

RaccoonGoon wrote:
@Franklin:
I find that you often make large leaps with your logic to support your point of view, when the reality is that many times the evidence does not support your hypothesis.

Have you looked closely at other countries that are ruled by a confederation of PMUs instead of having an executive-backed force like we do? For one example, today Romania lost an important battle in Zona Sur and got kicked out of New Zealand and South America, and from what I've read, the main reason they were not able to hold that territory is because there is an ongoing disagreement between the eRomanian government and their private MUs, such that less than 50% of Romanian damage even went into the battle.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to see the eUS in that sort of position.

Not sure about Romania, but I don't see America having the same problem because the leaders of our PMUs are part of the NSC; who make the decisions on who and where we fight.

Whydoibother wrote:SEAPHEPPO!!!!!

We didn't refuse FS, we just don't currently qualify.

IMO, there are ways to make this work for PMUs that are interested. One unit's big sticking point is having to follow NSC orders all the time. That group has yet to propose what they are willing to accept. I think my suggestion of 6/7 days AND ANY battle invloving eUS regions (core or otherwise) or directly led eUS battles is a good start but no one else seemed to think that.

Yes, I understand we didn't 'refuse' the rebate; Easy Company simply didn't have Communes that qualified. However, I feel that even if Easy Company had qualified; we would have turned it down. I did like your suggestion except; 5/7 days, battles involving eUS core regions, battles involving captured regions if battle is below 55% or battles directly led by American Forces and are below 55%.
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by RaccoonGoon on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:33 am

Franklin Stone wrote:Not sure about Romania, but I don't see America having the same problem because the leaders of our PMUs are part of the NSC; who make the decisions on who and where we fight.

Yes, but the thing is, PMUs are independent by definition. Yes, things are working well right now, and EZC and SHIELD are awesome and loyal, but if you privatize everything, there aren't really any guarantees.

Here's a related question... Who do you think should be in charge of the foreign policy of the eUS? You say the NSC makes decisions on who and where to fight, but that's not necessarily the case. In general, foreign policy is dictated by the president and the secretary of state. Congress rubber stamps it via MPPs, and the NSC has the job of deciding how best to accomplish our foreign affairs goals on the battlefield and then getting all the various MUs on the same page. While it is true that the task of hammering out exact battle strategy falls to the NSC, a large part of the NSC's role is a place for all the MUs to communicate and get on the same page. A lot of the job of the NSC Chairman is building consensus, getting orders out, and keeping all of the country's various military entities informed.

Anyway, as I've said, in the eUS, most of the decisions regarding our grand foreign affairs plan fall to the elected POTUS and his appointed Secretary of State. In many countries, a confederation of PMUs holds most of this power, since if they don't like what the CP and the executive are doing, they simply won't fight to accomplish those goals. In some countries even, the foreign affairs power is held by Congress, since some congresses (unlike eUS Congress) do not pass MPPs at the CP's behest and insist on debating them and perhaps blocking them if they don't like where the country is headed.

So, my question is, which of those models do you prefer and why?

Actually, I have another question for Deepchill, if he's still watching this topic:
You've been NSC Chairman a few times, and you recently reclaimed your freedom from the CP's chair. Do you feel like what I outlined above is a fair explanation of the role of the NSC? Furthermore, do you think it would be better if the NSC (and by extension eUS MUs) had more influence on our overarching foreign policy? Honestly, I'm just curious, and I'm sort of looking to turn this into a wider discussion of how things work and how they should work, rather than just a back and forth between Franklin and myself; I think that's a better way to understand how and why Franklin's viewpoint deviates from the majority, rather than just debating the same stuff ad nauseam.
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by Franklin Stone on Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:26 am

RaccoonGoon wrote:
Yes, but the thing is, PMUs are independent by definition. Yes, things are working well right now, and EZC and SHIELD are awesome and loyal, but if you privatize everything, there aren't really any guarantees.

What is the guarantee that the USAF will continue to be loyal? The Budget Line? If the Budget Line were to be stopped would they remain loyal? A PMU is loyal because the believe in America and they wish to defend it, free soldiers -which we all are after all- do not join or fight for a PMU because of the pay; they do it because they are loyal to America not because they are paid mercenaries.

RaccoonGoon wrote:
Here's a related question... Who do you think should be in charge of the foreign policy of the eUS? You say the NSC makes decisions on who and where to fight, but that's not necessarily the case. In general, foreign policy is dictated by the president and the secretary of state. Congress rubber stamps it via MPPs, and the NSC has the job of deciding how best to accomplish our foreign affairs goals on the battlefield and then getting all the various MUs on the same page. While it is true that the task of hammering out exact battle strategy falls to the NSC, a large part of the NSC's role is a place for all the MUs to communicate and get on the same page. A lot of the job of the NSC Chairman is building consensus, getting orders out, and keeping all of the country's various military entities informed.

Anyway, as I've said, in the eUS, most of the decisions regarding our grand foreign affairs plan fall to the elected POTUS and his appointed Secretary of State. In many countries, a confederation of PMUs holds most of this power, since if they don't like what the CP and the executive are doing, they simply won't fight to accomplish those goals. In some countries even, the foreign affairs power is held by Congress, since some congresses (unlike eUS Congress) do not pass MPPs at the CP's behest and insist on debating them and perhaps blocking them if they don't like where the country is headed.

So, my question is, which of those models do you prefer and why?

One of the biggest reasons American Foreign Affairs is mostly acceptable is because we have Wild Owl, he has been our Foreign Affairs Officer under nearly every 'Unity' President; IMO the only thing those Presidents did to help our FA was to keep Wild Owl. The model I would prefer is a strong Foreign Affairs Office, led by Wild Owl or someone like him; who is appointed by Congress not the President.

RaccoonGoon wrote:
Actually, I have another question for Deepchill, if he's still watching this topic:
You've been NSC Chairman a few times, and you recently reclaimed your freedom from the CP's chair. Do you feel like what I outlined above is a fair explanation of the role of the NSC? Furthermore, do you think it would be better if the NSC (and by extension eUS MUs) had more influence on our overarching foreign policy? Honestly, I'm just curious, and I'm sort of looking to turn this into a wider discussion of how things work and how they should work, rather than just a back and forth between Franklin and myself; I think that's a better way to understand how and why Franklin's viewpoint deviates from the majority, rather than just debating the same stuff ad nauseam.

I would like to hear Deep Chill's opinion on this also....
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Re: [TTH] Welcome to eRepublik

Post by RaccoonGoon on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:47 pm

Dissecting this a bit and removing quotes from myself to avoid lolmassive quote pyramid...

Franklin Stone wrote:What is the guarantee that the USAF will continue to be loyal? The Budget Line? If the Budget Line were to be stopped would they remain loyal?

This is a bit of an opinion question, but in my view, there is no guarantee; there is a control. The money does not buy mercenary work. The money gives the executive branch top-down control of the USAF (i.e: the power of the purse). That control works to ensure that the USAF acts according to the executive's priorities, since anyone acting against the executive's priorities can be shown the door or cut from supplies.

Franklin Stone wrote:A PMU is loyal because the believe in America and they wish to defend it, free soldiers -which we all are after all- do not join or fight for a PMU because of the pay; they do it because they are loyal to America not because they are paid mercenaries.

This is a very idealistic viewpoint, and while I believe this is true of some PMUs (like EZC), it's foolish to believe that it is true of all PMUs. While I do believe that most if not all eUS PMUs would come to America's aid should we face an existential threat. It has been shown pretty clearly in the past (especially during times of foreign affairs upheaval) that some PMUs have loyalty first to the ideals of their group and second to the course charted by the Secretary of State and the executive branch. (And yes, I could give examples, but I don't think it's pertinent to this discussion to call out MUs or individuals; that's not really the point I'm trying to make.)

On a related note, may I ask you a couple other questions?

Hypothetically, if, sometime next month, Wild Owl (during Wild Owl term 4) negotiated an MPP between the US and Serbia and then opened up Arm America in #usa.tanks to hit for Serbia against Chile and prove our loyalty to our new allies, what would you do? Would you hit for our new allies (thereby increasing America's regional security by endearing us to Serbia)? Would you stay out of it? Would you move and hit on your own dime for Chile as an act of protest (because, man, f**k Serbia)?

Now, regardless of your personal answer, here's another question: which of those is loyalty? Or, is it not even a question of loyalty because it doesn't involve American core regions (even if we assume that Wild Owl was doing all this to ensure America's long-term security and high bonuses)?



Now, to this, since to me, this is a bit of a different line of conversation...
Franklin Stone wrote:One of the biggest reasons American Foreign Affairs is mostly acceptable is because we have Wild Owl, he has been our Foreign Affairs Officer under nearly every 'Unity' President; IMO the only thing those Presidents did to help our FA was to keep Wild Owl. The model I would prefer is a strong Foreign Affairs Office, led by Wild Owl or someone like him; who is appointed by Congress not the President.

Ah, so you prefer congressional control, via an appointment done on the basis of merit? Cool. I wouldn't necessarily be agaist that, and that helps illuminate your viewpoint a bit. Now, would you agree with me if I said that you seem to have a distrust of the executive branch (or perhaps the president, as a focal point of power in eRep)?

Out of curiosity though, what, in your view, makes Congress better suited to oversee our foreign affairs establishment? Both the CP and Congress are elected officials, and arguably, Congress is less democratically-elected than the CP (since usually, the PP wields an inordinate amount of control over who gets into Congress). Is it just a matter of decentralizing power and putting the decision-making in the hands of a larger body of people?

[As an aside, sorry to the rest of you who might be paying attention. lol I'm mostly just trying to get a clearer understanding of Franklin's views here. I would still like Deepchill's input on the nature of the NSC and its role like I said above, but I can't blame anyone if they don't want to get involved in this rambling mess of a thread.]
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